Audi Ice Event 2/26 - Results

[SalahK]

BEST TIME STUDDED FIRST LAST NAME YEAR MAKE MODEL
03:10.8 Yes Redig Jeff 1987 Audi 5000
04:39.7 No Khuhro Salah 2005 Mitsubishi Evo
04:43.8 No Price Jordan 2001 Audi A4 1.8T
04:48.3 Yes Remmen Chase 1988 Audi 90 Q
04:49.7 No Gumm Joshua 2001 Audi S4
04:57.1 No Adamson Dan 2002 Nissan NX2000
04:57.7 No Pladson Mark 2002 Audi S4 Avant
05:00.6 No Rajan Arul 2001 Mazda protege
05:00.6 Yes Stone Sam 1990 Audi 80 Quattro
05:01.1 No Clark Jason 2005 Audi S4
05:03.7 No Evans Matt 88 Audi 90Q
05:06.5 No Heidcamp Ryan 1991 VW Jetta
05:09.5 No Albright Brian 2001 Audi S4
05:11.0 No Finks Sigurd 2001 Audi S4 Avant
05:11.9 No Gottwalt Mark 1995 Audi S6
05:17.9 No Gardner Troy 2002 Audi allroad
05:21.8 No Lau Thomas 1995 Audi S6
05:27.2 No Hazen Tom 2003 Acura RSX Type-S
05:27.2 No Small Andrew 2001 Audi TT Coupe
05:32.0 No Winsor Eric 1994 Nissan Sentra SER
05:35.0 No Davis John 2004 Audi A4 -1.8T-Q
05:42.0 No Finks Kelsey 2002 VW Jetta 1.8T
05:53.0 No Kagan Jonathan 2000 Audi S6
06:13.7 No Lo Kwong Chi 1987 Porsche 944 turbo

[EWAustin]

Salah,
I've got a quick question since you were there, the first place guy, Jeff Redig. Is 1:30 ahead of you? I just can't see studs making that big of a difference. Jeff is in my Intro to Engineering class and he likes to talk about what a good driver he is but says that Autocross is too easy for him (yeah right). So anyways, do you think it's possible that he was just that fast or do you think he maybe took advantage of the layout of the track?

[MattD]

YEAR MAKE MODEL
2002 Nissan NX2000

Eh? :?

[EWAustin]

I think that was supposed to be a 92...
Like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v444/tideripsurf/1992nissannx2000.jpg
aka: the evil egg...

[Fox1]

Jeff is in my Intro to Engineering class and he likes to talk about what a good driver he is but says that Autocross is too easy for him (yeah right).

Did he really say that? I'm going to have to give him some crap for that :evil:
Studs make a big difference, and he had a very agressive set of studs. I think the real reason he doesn't autoX is that the 5000 has pretty lousy weight distribution for these type of courses, but I'm trying to get him to bring his 90 out and back up those big words of his :lol:

[SalahK]

Did he really say that? I'm going to have to give him some crap for that :evil:
Studs make a big difference, and he had a very agressive set of studs. I think the real reason he doesn't autoX is that the 5000 has pretty lousy weight distribution for these type of courses, but I'm trying to get him to bring his 90 out and back up those big words of his :lol:

Without a doubt, really aggressive studded rally tires like the one he was driving on will lop off 30% or more of the total time. With so much traction on ice, there may not be any advantage for him to veer off into the snow. The other studded cars were using regular tires with small studs attached. These dont provide nearly as much grip as a proper studded rally tire.

With such a difference in grip, It is difficult to say just how well he drives unless other good drivers are able to co-drive his car for comparison.

[phile]

>Jeff Redig. Is 1:30 ahead of you? I just can't see studs making that big of a difference.

Yes. They will. No question.

>Jeff is in my Intro to Engineering class and he likes to talk about what a good driver he is but says that Autocross is too easy for him

I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he does not really understand what autocross is.

When he can consistently beat Randy in a similar car, he might be able to make that statement.

This reminds me of the guy at the hillclimb where a certain Jag owner predicted he would have the fastest time there. Of course, Lee and I and half of the rest of the field beat him.

I suggest the next time this guy says this, you tell him that "It ain't bragging if you can do it", but that you have not seen any evidence that he can do it, so it's still bragging and you don't want to hear it.

[EWAustin]

Did he really say that? I'm going to have to give him some crap for that :evil:
Studs make a big difference, and he had a very agressive set of studs. I think the real reason he doesn't autoX is that the 5000 has pretty lousy weight distribution for these type of courses, but I'm trying to get him to bring his 90 out and back up those big words of his :lol:

Don't go startin' no fights now, I might have misunderstood him. However there was definately an air of "I'm too good for autocross" when I asked him if he ever had.

I can understand not wanting to autocross his 5000 too, it isn't exactly an idea platform, and the big turbo would put him into a class that the car is severely underprepared for. But it would be good to see him out there in his 90.

[SEStone]

I'm a buddy of Jeff's and will smack him in the ass next time I see him if he said that. That said, his 5000 would be an animal for autocross...it's a boat, doesn't handle too terribly well (it's a full size sedan going against cars several feet shorter than it), and is really meant for an environment where it can stretch its legs. For the $40 it would cost his poor ass to autocross for 10min of run time, he's got alternatives (rallycross, ice racing, etc).

Also, I got a ride in the car...'unfair advantage' would be what I would call the studs. He had a set of Menard ice racing tires on the car, combined with quattro and 300hp+, the car was insanity. More grip going completely sideways then he had going straight, meant he could come into corners at full bore and steer through them with his right foot, at 40-60mph, whereas on the ice us friction tire people would have to tip-toe around. Braking was a similar story, I recall ditching to the unplowed inside of the track to get slowed down from 55mph waaayyyy in advance of a hairpin, whereas Jeff could fly in at the top of 3rd (90mph+), and jam on the brakes using something resembling the correct line.

Most of the other studded cars there had simple screw-in studs, and lost them very rapidly.

I registered with studs, but the deal fell through so I ran with the Blizzaks I've been abusing with a bad alignment (whacked a kerb with my inside front tire while drifting through a corner earlier this winter, I couldn't get it perfectly back into spec, so the inside two tread blocks are basically bald). Being only 16-17sec off on the RSi runners, I considered the day a victory...the traction I had on ice was nonexistant.

Sam

[washburn]

Don't go startin' no fights now, I might have misunderstood him. However there was definately an air of "I'm too good for autocross" when I asked him if he ever had.

I can understand not wanting to autocross his 5000 too, it isn't exactly an idea platform, and the big turbo would put him into a class that the car is severely underprepared for. But it would be good to see him out there in his 90.

I'd be happy to lend him my VW. It's no Audi, but it *is* German. :) I can understand people not wanting to get into AX...it's not for everyone. I would respect a persons opinions about it more, however, if they at least tried it. Then the reasons are usually, "It's not enough seat time for the cost" or "I don't like standing around all day" and things like that (legit reasons)...not "It's too easy".

[washburn]

Without a doubt, really aggressive studded rally tires like the one he was driving on will lop off 30% or more of the total time.

Even more, just like our AX tires, what kind of studded tire makes a big difference. I believe that SCCA has narrowed legal studded tires to tires you can purchase commercially made, like Menards tires. They have a specific stud shape, material, and pattern. Show up with a tire that has been drywall screwed from the inside out with about a million of the little suckers, and you will easily whomp all over the Menards tire.

[Birdmanmt]

I just can't see studs making that big of a difference. Jeff is in my Intro to Engineering class and he likes to talk about what a good driver he is but says that Autocross is too easy for him (yeah right). So anyways, do you think it's possible that he was just that fast or do you think he maybe took advantage of the layout of the track?


so i'd like to chime in and just defend myself a little here. farther down you say you may have misunderstood me, and that is very very correct. I've never said anything about how good of ANY kind of a driver i am. All we've ever talked about is our cars and what's done to them. i have never said ANYTHING about it being "too easy". go toot your horn somewhere else.

Studs make an unbelievable difference, especially the one's i had. the front's were menards, the rear's where conical tipped haackinson's. they aren't your every day studded tire. i could've been under 3 minutes, but keep getting caught up in the fun line around the track. And salah, you're right, if i get off in the snow, it's over. they have terrible traction in the snow.

as far as autox goes, i've run it, quite a bit when i lived in montana. It's a lot of fun, and i hope to get my 80q out this year. What we were talking about in class that day was, you had asked me why i don't autox my 5000. well let's see here....

70/30 front to rear weight biased
it's a full size car
it weighs 3600 lbs
no rear sway bar
no real suspension mods

that would be an insane waste of money. even in the 80q, it's gonna be a huge struggle to keep up with more modern cars. I completely understand autox and have experience in it. until very recently, i haven't owned a car for several years worth running in it.

now to start a war, ice racing with studs, is way way better than autox, IMHO. it's better than sex, because i can race with studs, ALL DAY LONG! :flame: light me up guys! :D

sam, you can slap me on the ass all you want, but remember, i'll fight back! ;)

[Birdmanmt]

oh yeah, it's not "a big turbo" either. just the little stocker that came with the car. hopefully this summer it will get upgraded along with an engine rebuild. it's more than over due.

[EWAustin]

You can say whatever you want, but I would like to get some facts straight.

I never asked why you didn't autocross your 5k. I asked "Have you ever tried Autocrossing?" I don't remember the exact wording of your response (this was over a month ago) but it was along the lines of "yeah, but ..............."

My understanding from your series of words was that Autocross was too easy for you and you preferred to slide around in the dirt/snow/ice. Fine, that's fun too, and I have a blast doing that in my MR2.

I did ask about the modifications to your car because I enjoy cars of all types. All you really said was "go look a this website". Again, fine; I could have done that on my own. I was hoping to hear about your specific modifications and why you did what you did.

Communication is a two way street; no matter what you're saying if the person receiving doesn't understand then it's not effective communication. So no matter what you think you said, if I heard it differently then we were both wrong.

Reading over my previous posts, maybe I went a little overboard and I appologize if I put words in your mouth. However, I do not appreciate being told to "go toot my horn somewhere else".

I never claimed to be a better driver than you, and to my knowledge I have never claimed to be a better driver than anyone else (with a few exceptions whom I think a six year old could beat in an autocross).

I certainly did not downplay your skill behind the wheel. I merely asked if it was possible that studs can make that huge of a difference. I got my answer from multiple sources, yes they can make that big of a difference.

Now, I would like to invite you to stick around here for a while, We're a good bunch of guys (and girls) who enjoy most forms of autosports. (NASCAR seems to be the most common exception).
Give it a try, in a car better suited for Autocross. I really think it's a lot of fun, and I hope that you will too. Hell, I'll even let you co-drive my MR2 if you want. Truce?

[EWAustin]

oh yeah, it's not "a big turbo" either. just the little stocker that came with the car. hopefully this summer it will get upgraded along with an engine rebuild. it's more than over due.

I thought you said you threw a big diesel truck turbo on. You were talking about how you fabbed up the manifold for it yourself.

[Birdmanmt]

ok ok, easy tiger. isn't a truce only valid when at war? i'd classify this as a mild discussion. I didn't mean to get off on a wrong/bad foot. the horn comment was intended as a joke/sarcastic statment, next time i'll insert a smiley.

however, you were definetly putting words in my mouth about autox being easy or that i'm too good for it. My reasoning/explanation after you asked me if I had ever tried was along the lines of, " yes, but i now own this car, 5000, and it's not worth it. hence why i slide around in the snow/ice/mud with it, because this car attributes shine thru in those conditions. "

thanks for the clarification on communication, i'm sure it will help someone.

when were we ever comparing who the better driver was? wonder how that little guy got in there....and i wasn't ever implying that you were downplaying my abilities, or lack there of, behind the wheel. I was just backing up that studs can play a very large role in improving traction, especially the one's i was running.

and yes i agree that you asked about mods to my car. but it's hard to say what they are on such an old car that has a lot of custom work. between that and you starting to name drop what had been done to your subie, it was easier to say, "go look here".

You odn't have to tell me to give it a try. i've done it. co-driven a 74 TR6 and an 04 WRX when i lived in montana. it's nothing new to me. It is a lot of fun...i'll be around.

i'm glad to see nascar is an exception! i wish we could see more f1 and world rally info on the telly here.

cheers

[Birdmanmt]

I thought you said you threw a big diesel truck turbo on. You were talking about how you fabbed up the manifold for it yourself.

ah, more communication problems. I was hoping to have that done this winter, but now that's what's going to happen this summer. i have the turbo, and all the parts for the manifold(flanges, weld-els, pipe etc...). now to find some time somewhere....that won't happen anytime soon.

[EWAustin]

now to start a war,

isn't a truce only valid when at war?

:? :lol:

[EWAustin]

next time i'll insert a smiley.
Thanks, I'm not too good at the sarcasm/kidding thing, even in person.

thanks for the clarification on communication, i'm sure it will help someone.
I hope so.

when were we ever comparing who the better driver was? wonder how that little guy got in there....and i wasn't ever implying that you were downplaying my abilities, or lack there of, behind the wheel. I was just backing up that studs can play a very large role in improving traction, especially the one's i was running.
This came out of the "toot your horn" statement.

and yes i agree that you asked about mods to my car. but it's hard to say what they are on such an old car that has a lot of custom work. between that and you starting to name drop what had been done to your subie, it was easier to say, "go look here".
I don't think "Name Dropping" is quite the word for it. I was hoping to get a similar list out of you. I dunno, maybe my mod-memory is just better than yours. :p (yeah right, my memory sucks.)

You don't have to tell me to give it a try. i've done it. ... it's nothing new to me.
Now who's getting defensive.


I learn by asking, and hearing about other people's experiences. Seeing as I don't have all the money in the world, I can't just buy any car I want and go for it to see what happens. So I was hoping to maybe learn a little bit about the 5000tq.

[StevenMosley]

oh yeah, it's not "a big turbo" either. just the little stocker that came with the car. hopefully this summer it will get upgraded along with an engine rebuild. it's more than over due.

In an Audi 5000?

[washburn]

I had an 87 5KTQ Wagon. Put lower, stiffer springs on it. No way would I want to Autocross that thing, even with the springs. Great cruise missle though.

[StevenMosley]

My friend had the same thing in college 95. His dad picked it up for $800 He tried to trade it for my 83 Toyota Tercel 4x4 Wagon, because something was always wrong with it.

[Fox1]

In an Audi 5000?

The answer to this is going to be "yes," if you were waiting for a response before you elaborate :D

[phile]

My friend had the same thing in college 95. His dad picked it up for $800 He tried to trade it for my 83 Toyota Tercel 4x4 Wagon, because something was always wrong with it.
Usually the power steering and the complicated electronics.

Amazingly rust-resistant, though.

[SEStone]

Usually the power steering and the complicated electronics.

Amazingly rust-resistant, though.


27 coats of rust proofing on the thing, factory sprayed underbody and fully wax-cavity filled.

Electronics aren't that over-the-top, they just use the most ghetto standards of wire and connectors ever.

And the power steering/brakes...hydroboost, what can you say. The high system pressures mean large leaks if any sort of seal or scratch is compromised.

Sam

[Birdmanmt]

I'll bring one or both of my 5k's out to some autox event this summer, just to show how bad they really can be. at least on a course setup for a miata.

I wouldn't necessarily call the electronics complicated. it's all pretty simple. what's complicated is the stock fuel injection system, ICK!

the cruise missile statement is dead nuts on though. give em room to stretch their legs, these cars can shine.

[washburn]

I got rid of mine because I smelled a bunch of trouble coming, and I wasn't willing to do the work to keep up with all the little (and sometimes big) things. The list of things the previous owner had just replaced was frightening. The FI and electrical system scared me in it's design.

I don't mean to bash Audi...I am a big fan and I really loved this car. I'm a bit happier right now with my 525i Wagon though. Bring it out...it would nice to see a well cared for 5K. Please don't ask me to take it out on an autocross run though. :)