Refund Policy for 2006 MAC events

[MNbiker]

Due to the large number of no shows at events last year, and the burden placed on volunteer members processing refunds, MAC has elected to institute a more restrictive refund policy for online registrations this year.
We apologize in advance for any hardship this may cause members. Please realize this action wasn't undertaken without considerable discussion, and is being done primarily to ensure drivers who want to attend events are afforded the opportunity to do so.

-Steve




REFUND POLICY
Minnesota Autosports Club (MAC) has a No Refund policy for online registrations.

Exceptions to this policy may be granted at the sole discretion of a MAC Officer, in cases of significant hardship - such as a serious injury or illness, death in the immediate family, or auto accident. All refund requests must be submitted in writing (electronic or paper) to the MAC Treasurer not later than 10 days after the event for which a refund is being requested, and will be subject to a $5.00 service charge.

Per Met Council Autocross Rules, refunds will be provided if your car fails to pass Safety Inspection at an event, and you are thus unable to compete in that event.

[Chin]

So...if I have to go out of town, last minute, for work... I SOL?! Come on now, people, what is this "club" becomming?

....and that will do no good for another competitor as I will still be a no-show.

Christian Banks (...prepared to be 'milked' of my money)
#202 DSP
'00 Impreza 2.5RS

[AlexL]

I think it would be in everyone's best interest to allow refunds to those who cancel their registrations before the event (within an acceptable timeframe, of course). Otherwise, there's not much reason for anyone to cancel and we'll still have issues with no-shows.

[ot81to]

If registration opens 30 days before the event, and the events fill up within a couple days, that means that people have to register almost a month in advance. Personally, I don't know my schedule a month in advance, so it's hard to commit so early. My solution to this would be to allow a grace period for cancellations. Refunds should be given until 3 days prior to an event. Everyone should know 3 days prior to an event if they would be able to attend or not. So after all cancellations have gone through, (3 days prior to the event), people from the waiting list can fill up the newly opened spots. Just my 2 centavos. :)

[phile]

So after all cancellations have gone through, (3 days prior to the event), people from the waiting list can fill up the newly opened spots.

Waiting list?

Am I hearing that you are volunteering to administer a waiting list?

[ot81to]

Waiting list?

Am I hearing that you are volunteering to administer a waiting list?

Last season, there was a waiting list thread for almost every event. IIRC, the events were filling up weeks in advance.

However, if it were helpful to the club, I would be willing to volunteer. :)

[Gspot]

How about we stop letting people pre-register. That way people are there early and are the most commited of the club. Then we'll also have plenty of people around to work the morning jobs like setup etc.

[esper]

I agree with the elimination of pre registering, but the problem is that some people won't come unless they know a spot is assured for them, and it causes organizational problems and you dont know how many to expect

I guess the problem is that for people who plan to make every event we will have to fight it out 30 days beforehand and register many times over the course of the season rather than just do it once and get it over with. I think that people who are more serious about competing for season points (after all the club is getting more competitive) would like the assurance that they don't have to get wait listed at an event because they didn't sign up for it the night registration opened, which is a fear some have. Some people check internet stuff constantly, some do rarely and it will affect the ones that rarely look more.


In the DC region they sell autocross season passes to people who want to compete as much as possible. they pay for all the events at the beginning of the season and if they cant make an event they have up to a week beforehand to drop out, but don't expect your money back until the end of the season. I'd have already bought one if we had offered them.

[1/2mv^2]

Pre-registration has a ton of benefits:

1) Entries are bulk loaded into the timing system - saving time at the event.
2) Run groups can be predetermined - saving time at the event.
3) Work groups can be predetermined - saving time at the event.

Things are 100x better with preregistration then they were before we had it. Before we had it, event started late all the time. Since, we often start early, and get more runs and more fun runs.

My take:

You should be able to cancel up to about 3-4 days in advance, with no penalty. After that, it's up to arbitration.

As far as events filling up, it was because there was no penalty for registering, so if somebody had even the slightest possiblity of going, they'd preregister.

Now, if you have to pay, then you're going to think about it a bit more.

[benswen]

Or, you could just make a no-refund policy (barring extenuating circumstances) and have that be the incentive to keep people from registering if they're not sure if they can attend.

[weidnerpaul]

Think of it like buying a concert ticket:

If you can't go you don't get your $$$ back BUT you can sell your ticket to someone else.

Maybe we'll end up with MAC entries being bid for on ebay :lol:

We need to be fair to the club members and general public here --- that includes having something easy to administer (all volunteer workers) and understand. If you don't want to pay in advance & take the risk, then take that chance of a spot being open at the event --- can't have it both ways. Besides, I believe that we had less than full fields at several of the events last year because of all the no-shows, there is no perfect solution.

I also think that we should have a deadline for cancelling and getting a refund (less the $5 fee), but IMO it should be five days.

Paul

[ot81to]

What if we were to reserve a certain amount of spots for paid MAC members? Paid members are probably more serious about attending events. It seems to me that a lot of the no-shows last season were from people who came across the MAC website, pre-registered, and never showed.

[weidnerpaul]

What if we were to reserve a certain amount of spots for paid MAC members? Paid members are probably more serious about attending events. It seems to me that a lot of the no-shows last season were from people who came across the MAC website, pre-registered, and never showed.

I like the way the club is growing and having more enthusiasts, that said we do need to figure how to manage this as I believe that we'll have more people wanting to get into every event than last year, look at how fast the Novice School filled up.

Paul

[Darryl]

What if we were to reserve a certain amount of spots for paid MAC members? Paid members are probably more serious about attending events. It seems to me that a lot of the no-shows last season were from people who came across the MAC website, pre-registered, and never showed.


I think we had 145 paid members last year... most site's won't support that...

[ot81to]

I should have clairified. I didn't mean reserved spots for ALL of the MAC members, but instead have a seperate "block" of reserved spots. (still with a limited number). I guess I would need to know the average breakdown of attendants at events last year to tell if this idea would work.

[MNbiker]

What if we were to reserve a certain amount of spots for paid MAC members? Paid members are probably more serious about attending events. It seems to me that a lot of the no-shows last season were from people who came across the MAC website, pre-registered, and never showed.

We have no way of confirming memberships status on the registration site. To do that would require our own custom registration system.

And FWIW, we had more members no-showing than non-members.

-Steve

[MNbiker]

I think it would be in everyone's best interest to allow refunds to those who cancel their registrations before the event (within an acceptable timeframe, of course). Otherwise, there's not much reason for anyone to cancel and we'll still have issues with no-shows.

To be perfectly honest, we don't care all that much if people pay, then don't show up. That just means we took in enough money to cover our costs, PLUS everyone who does attend gets more runs. ;)

[MNbiker]

So...if I have to go out of town, last minute, for work... I SOL?! Come on now, people, what is this "club" becomming?

....and that will do no good for another competitor as I will still be a no-show.

Christian Banks (...prepared to be 'milked' of my money)
#202 DSP
'00 Impreza 2.5RS

Not necessarily. As one of those who would be able to approve refunds, I would generally be OK with refunds for someone who was called out of town for work on short notice.

The key things we NEED to improve are:
1. Refunds need to be the exception, rather than the rule. If we make it too easy to get refunds, it's probable we would receive a huge number of requests for refunds. That's an administrative load we don't have staff to support.

2. We need people to be pretty certain they're going to attend an event, before they register. The no-show situation last year was ridiculous.

-Steve

[MNbiker]

Last season, there was a waiting list thread for almost every event. IIRC, the events were filling up weeks in advance.

However, if it were helpful to the club, I would be willing to volunteer. :)

You REALLY don't want to go there. The waiting list process last year was a total PITA, and scared a lot of people away from events.:(

In my opinion, we're much better off being fairly restrictive for advance registrations, so that events don't get completely full in advance. If events still fill up well in advance - even with prepayment - we may have to come up with a Plan C.:p

[larry200]

No system will please everyone.

Many options were considered before implementing this system.

Ed has reminded us of the tremendous benefits of pre-registration.

The no-refunds policy was put in place to discourage the no-shows that we experienced last year and because no one wants to volunteer to be the "Refund Person", that person who, if refunds are allowed, is likely going to have to mail out 10-50 checks after each event. That person would alos need access to the MAC checkbook, just to name one further complication.

Even refunds for cancellations five days before the event are going to cause added work. (Does MAE allow cancellations? If not, it's unworkable.) Chances are, I'll register for one or two events that I won't be able to attend. One way of looking at that is that I'm out $50-60 (or as I prefer to call it, "a donation to a worthy cause"). Another way of looking at it is that my "average" entry fee for the other 6-8 events that I'll attend will work out to ~$35-40 instead of the regular $25-30. If I can't predict my schedule, my cost goes up some. That seems reasonably equitable to me.

The eBay comment doesn't sound all that far-fetched. Of course, we don't need eBay; we've got the MAC "For Sale/Wanted" forum! It seems like entries could be "transferrable". That, too, means some extra work, but not much more than registration already does for day-of-event entries. This would put the majority of the "work" where it belongs, on the members cancelling and the members taking their places.

I think entries should be transferrable, but there may be difficulties that I am over-looking. Other than that, I'm happy to give this new system a chance and see how it works out. And mad props to the MAC leadership for hammering this out.

-- Larry "How much would you pay to autocross?" B.

[brm]

I'm one of those whose work and kid's soccer schedule has kept from competing regularly for some time. When I tried to make a few more events last year, I was discouraged by my inability to get into any events without signing up months in advance. My $.02 is to allow refunds for no-shows with a good excuse, although policing it could be hard--May I see a note from your doctor? I would not allow transferrable entries, as I think it would continue last year's problems by reducing or eliminating the disincentive (lost $) to sign up for everything.

[esper]

I'm not a millionaire (ask neal, he knows) but I don't consider autoX entry fees to be so high that I can't afford to lose one per season. Especially compared to what some people have to spend on their cars and tires I think of the entry fees as being almost negligeable.

Not saying everyone else has to agree with that POV, but I'd rather register all at once and take my chances that i might miss one event. If i got the refund in a check 6 months later, it wouldn't bother me at all.

[AlexL]

I'm not a millionaire (ask neal, he knows) but I don't consider autoX entry fees to be so high that I can't afford to lose one per season. Especially compared to what some people have to spend on their cars and tires I think of the entry fees as being almost negligeable.

Not saying everyone else has to agree with that POV, but I'd rather register all at once and take my chances that i might miss one event. If i got the refund in a check 6 months later, it wouldn't bother me at all.
I agree 100%. The $20-30 entry fee is nothing compared to all my other autocross expenses.

[washburn]

I really don't think there will be many problems here, lets not blow things out of proportion. You gotta consider this is a self levelling solution.

The reason we even had to have a waiting list in the first place was because of mass pre-registration to hold a spot. Then people decided whether they would go or not just before the event.

This is no different. Decide if your going to go to the event for sure, then pre-register. There will be spots because I believe that the new policy will help prevent events from filling in the first three days like last year with people who *might* go, but wanted to get a spot just in case. It was a problem that fed on itself...the more fear there was of not getting in, the earlier the event filled up. Right?

Allowing everyone to pre-register and hold a spot, keep a waiting list, and then fill the no shows with the waiting list people on the morning of the event is just plain backwards IMHO. We ended up never actually turning anyone away at an event.

I say let's give this a try. We need to trust each other though!! I trust that you will not pre-register unless your actually really planning on going to the event, and we will all trust that if something happens that keeps us away, we will be treated fairly. To continue to let what happened last year go on would be more of a dis-service to the membership IMO. I'm guessing we will be able to show up in the morning and register on site if we want.

P.S. - I don't know if anyone's talked about weather, but I think weather should not play into it. We run rain or shine...weather should not be considered a "something that happened".

[MNbiker]

Not saying everyone else has to agree with that POV, but I'd rather register all at once and take my chances that i might miss one event. If i got the refund in a check 6 months later, it wouldn't bother me at all.

It's too late to put something like that in place for this year. However, we should discuss the option for some type of season pass for next year. There are some logistical issues, but we may be able to work through them.

[washburn]

I never really thought about that, but since you brought it up I think that would be a great idea!! IF someone could figure an easy way to manage it, I would love to see us offer a pre-paid season pass. At the end of the season, sometime in the Winter, you would get a refund for the events you did not attend. It could help early season cash flow too.

The downside of course, is someone needs to manage it. It could be a twice a year thing though....once in teh Spring to sign people up and collect the money, and once in the Winter to do the refunds. C'mon...who's volunteering? :)

[moe]

I like the way it is setup now. I think the fee for excusable abscenses should actually be greater, to insure enough cash flow (myautoevents.com charges money for each paypal transaction) from less people attending. Events should now fill up slower because people won't want to just throw their money away if they don't know if they can go or not. Hopefully there will still be openings a week before for signup.

The only problem I have with having a season pass and issuing refunds at the end is why would you give these people refunds but not others. That would mean we would have 200 people signing up for the season pass at the beginning of the year. Every event would be full to start with and anyone that didn't show would still get a refund.

[weidnerpaul]

I never really thought about that, but since you brought it up I think that would be a great idea!! IF someone could figure an easy way to manage it, I would love to see us offer a pre-paid season pass. At the end of the season, sometime in the Winter, you would get a refund for the events you did not attend. It could help early season cash flow too.

The downside of course, is someone needs to manage it. It could be a twice a year thing though....once in teh Spring to sign people up and collect the money, and once in the Winter to do the refunds. C'mon...who's volunteering? :)

I volunteer to buy one :D

This might add to the no show count, I think we should table it for now and see how this season goes. Remember, with 150 plus members, more new members every year and sites that only "fit" ~120 entrants we could end up pre-selling a significant part of the field and I'm not sure we want to go there...

Paul

[pinhead]

Oh man, THIS topic again ;)

Personally, I don't like the new system (since I don't use paypal, the new plan inconveniences me), but I'll play along. My problem with it is that it doesn't directly address the problem of no-shows. The idea I liked was to just go in and delete future entries of people that no-showed ;) THAT directly addresses the issue of no-showing.

Whether or not the new system will work as promised remains to be seen. It will probably help, and I'll live with it, but I don't have to like it :P

-Roger, who needs to know where to snail-mail his check

[esper]

I will volunteer to do the season pass thing since I was the one who brought it up. however this is indeed something that would have to wait until next season.


The only problem I have with having a season pass and issuing refunds at the end is why would you give these people refunds but not others. That would mean we would have 200 people signing up for the season pass at the beginning of the year. Every event would be full to start with and anyone that didn't show would still get a refund.

I doubt many people are going to throw down a couple of hundred bucks (8 events at 30 bucks each) to just never show up at any events. the caveat of a season pass is you pay everything up front, and if you don't call off your cancellations in time, you lose your money. Simple as that.

We can add a cancellation thread in a forum. if you can post to it in time, then you can get your money back after we sort everything out at the end of the season. I someone doesn't want to wait that long, or suddenly might miss an event due to complications in their life or jbos then they aren't a good candidate to buy a season pass. That doesn't mean they still can't register like everyone else.

To be frank, if we had 200 people signing up for season passes at the beginning of the year i would be absolutely flabberghasted. About 5% of people even bother to prepay the $30 for an average single event, if that. And that would aslo put the club in a very good cashflow position coming into the year too.


I would also propose to limit the amout of cancellations a season pass member would be able to make (no more than 2-3 is reasonable imo, makes the income more stable and easier to predict), and propose a slight discount as an incentive to buy one.

This might add to the no show count, I think we should table it for now and see how this season goes. Remember, with 150 plus members, more new members every year and sites that only "fit" ~120 entrants we could end up pre-selling a significant part of the field and I'm not sure we want to go there...

to be frank some areas have more interest in autocrossing than they do sites and events to support it. we're not there yet, but heading towards that day one day. All of these organizations pretty much HAVE to sell season passes so that hardcore guy can compete becuaase otherwise if they don't log into MAE at 12AM the day registration opens a bunch of other maniacs will fill up the even in 30 minutes flat and they don't get to come at all.

In the mid atlantic they usually sell a significant percentage of their slots as very strenuously enforced season passes. They can get away with "pay for everything, no refunds" because its harder to get a spot at a local autocross there, unless you want to fight it out online, you are SOL.

Just trying to adapt this club so that it works with the more popular nature of autocross locally for the future. With more interest in autocross going up and sites remaining scarce and spots at a static number, something is going to have to mitigate the difference between the occasional autocrossers and the season points competitors to allow the people running for trophies the chance to enter events. Its not the most fun thing to have to do, but I'd like to be prepared for the days when we have 150 person limits and 300 people wanting to sign up for an event, which to be realistic may only be a couple of local news stories away.

[larry200]

The season pass does not have to wait until next season.

Just open up pre-paid, pre-registration to all MAC events now. As long as you're going to offer refunds to the no-shows at the end of the year as stated, I'm sure it will be quite popular.

But how would this be better for MAC than last year?

It wouldn't. It doesn't solve the problem of no-shows, it increases the amount of work MAC has to do, and it will lead to running events that aren't full, just like last year, costing MAC money.

-- Larry "Now can I be on the curmudgeon committee?" B.

[esper]

i made some edits about hard limiting the amount of no shows allowed for season pass holders.

the biggest advantage would be MAC would get the money upfront, and with limits on missed events (say one or two max) the money would be relatively guaranteed. The guys who want to register all at once and get it over with (me, a few others i have noticed) would have their option and be done with the whole thing.

And hey, if they miss an event and still pay for it, that's always good too!

[Dave Kral]

A lot of people have been tossing numbers around. I don't have the time or patience to address all of them, but, as the guy with access to the actual numbers, I will just say in general they're blowing smoke.

A number of years ago the club tried pre-paid season passes with post-season refunds for events not attended. The practice was abandoned because of the administration headaches - and that was before event attendance was anywhere near what it is now.

Dave
Money and Membership Guy

[MiataAndy]

Personally, i'd be all for the season pass, and i'd buy one up in a minute!

However, i'd suggest that you buy in at a discounted rate (say $25 instead of $30 per event). So you pay $200 to run as many events as are on the MAC schedule. However, i say NO refunds for events not attended. If you can't make it, then you shouldn't have sprung for the whole season.

I buy season tickets to Twins games, I don't expect Carl Pohlad to send me a refund check at the end of the season for the games i missed, regardless of the reason i missed it.

That is a chance you take, and i don't think i'd be the only one willing to take it if it assured me a spot in the grid at each event.

[1/2mv^2]

No refunds on a season pass. Now you're talking.

Maybe offer a couple different ones (5 events, 8 events).

Takes care of the money aspect, but not the "no show" problem of people being locked out of the event because of the uncertainty of there being an "day of event" registations.

There's a middle ground to the whole thing, obviously, and that's to not allow online pre-registration to fill the event. Always hold 10 or so spots for day-of-event registration. It satisfies the planners who pre-register, but also rewards the uncertains who get up early.

[SalahK]

I like the NO-REFUND policy exactly the way it is right now!

[73GT]

Alot of thought process was put into the system that the board members have came up with for 06. We wanted to be fair to everyone and to make sure all the people that want to get into an event could. Last year was unacceptable with the no shows, waiting lists we had and people who wanted to compete but couldn't because it was full online desided to not show up to see if they could get in. All of the board memebers are volunteers that put alot of time in behind the scenes to make our events the best they can be. They are always the first ones there and the last ones to leave and we are very lucky to have them the last thing I want is to burn them out. Refunds are alot unnessary administration work for the Treasurer and history has proved it whether it's per event or towards a season pass at the end of the season. We wanted the system to be "keep it simple and easy". I'm very proud to work with the board members in 05 and this year as all the members of MAC should be as they work very hard at every event to have things run smoothly.


Lee Frisvold
President 2006

[porkbone]

I'm 100% sure how it is set up now, but I think it's just fine. Here is what I think would be ideal:

- No season pass registration, refunds or not. Saving a spot for someone who doesn't show is unfair to people who want to participate, period.
- Online registration and payment is required for every event, and is opened 30 days in advance. That way there is no need to collect cash on-site.
- No refunds, period.

At least that's how I would do it.

[Turk]

Due to the large number of no shows at events last year, and the burden placed on volunteer members processing refunds, MAC has elected to institute a more restrictive refund policy for online registrations this year.
We apologize in advance for any hardship this may cause members. Please realize this action wasn't undertaken without considerable discussion, and is being done primarily to ensure drivers who want to attend events are afforded the opportunity to do so.

-Steve




REFUND POLICY
Minnesota Autosports Club (MAC) has a No Refund policy for online registrations.

Exceptions to this policy may be granted at the sole discretion of a MAC Officer, in cases of significant hardship - such as a serious injury or illness, death in the immediate family, or auto accident. All refund requests must be submitted in writing (electronic or paper) to the MAC Treasurer not later than 10 days after the event for which a refund is being requested, and will be subject to a $5.00 service charge.

Per Met Council Autocross Rules, refunds will be provided if your car fails to pass Safety Inspection at an event, and you are thus unable to compete in that event.


I registered MOWOG#1and 2 fine but I did not get a confirmation from the registar for MOWOG#2 even though online it says I am registered. Also I am not in the entry list. Both payment confirmations from paypal are recieved. Just want to confirm my registration for MOWOG #2. I already send an email to myautoevents.com. Does anybody know what to do next?

Mustafa

[phile]

I registered MOWOG#1and 2 fine but I did not get a confirmation from the registar for MOWOG#2 even though online it says I am registered. Also I am not in the entry list. Both payment confirmations from paypal are recieved. Just want to confirm my registration for MOWOG #2. I already send an email to myautoevents.com. Does anybody know what to do next?

Mustafa
Kick back and relax. You are listed on MOWOG 2 now.

Porsche? How will we recognize you without the Bimmer?

[autobahn]

I know refunds are a pain, but honestly I know a lot of you have lots of money to throw down, but $30 is not a trivial amount for some of us to just throw away.

Maybe MAC could "hire" someone to help out with refunds/administration... Like offer free auto-x for a year if someone handles all the refund work.... I dunno?

It's just hard for some of us with busy lives to set dates in stone a month ahead, things come up that you can't avoid.

[AlexL]

I know refunds are a pain, but honestly I know a lot of you have lots of money to throw down, but $30 is not a trivial amount for some of us to just throw away.
That's the point. The policy is in place to penalize people who register and don't show up.

[autobahn]

That's the point. The policy is in place to penalize people who register and don't show up.

But the way registration works, if you want any chance of getting into an event you'll have to register a month in advance.

It's just not a friendly system. I understand and agree with the penalization of not showing up the day of, but with limited entries we're forced to register early to get a spot, making the chances of having something come up between registration and the event much higher.

What I think would be a better policy is to have a 1-week cancellation deadline. That way we could safely register a month in advance and still allow time before the event for people to re-fill any cancelled spots. Would that be too difficult?

[stoooo]

:evil: Why not just wait until 7 days before the event to open registration ? :evil:

Stuart.

[AQuimby]

That's the point. The policy is in place to penalize people who register and don't show up.
That is not going to fix the problem though. I registerd for both MOWOG 1 and 2 and I'm not even sure I can go. But if I can go I'm going to make sure I have a spot. I thought the original problem was that people would preregister not show up and NOT CANCEL their preregistration then people on the "waiting list" wouldn't bother showing up either for fear of waisting there time. Then the events wouldn't fill. Do you think making me prepay and not offering me a refund is going to modivate me to cancel my preregistration. I don't think so. The way this sounds is that as long as the club gets their money they could care less weather you show up or not. If your making people prepay you should offer a refund.

[pinhead]

It's too late to matter, but I do agree with Quimby.

Mustafa, it looks like your in BS on Saturday and BST on Sunday?

[phile]

That is not going to fix the problem though. I registerd for both MOWOG 1 and 2 and I'm not even sure I can go. But if I can go I'm going to make sure I have a spot. I thought the original problem was that people would preregister not show up and NOT CANCEL their preregistration then people on the "waiting list" wouldn't bother showing up either for fear of waisting there time. Then the events wouldn't fill. Do you think making me prepay and not offering me a refund is going to modivate me to cancel my preregistration. I don't think so. The way this sounds is that as long as the club gets their money they could care less weather you show up or not. If your making people prepay you should offer a refund.


Sigh.

OK, we didn't think we were going to need a mailing list. We figured that if we did preregistration with payment only, we would not get so many preregistrations that we would top out the event.

Yes, there is an element of "we have your money we don't care if you show up". Sounds harsh, but we need to be able to pay the bills or there is no club and no autocrossing.

This is the problem that will not die. We are victims of our own success. Part of the problem is lack of sites, and specifically lack of large sites. Here we go again.

As I recall, we discussed this at the meeting this month.

[washburn]

But the way registration works, if you want any chance of getting into an event you'll have to register a month in advance.

This is not true. Read my post from a few pages ago about trust. You guys are still in the mentality that we need to mad rush to assure of getting in. I really don't think this will be a problem.

Adam, the problem wasn't that people didn't cancel. It was that they registered in the first place when they really weren't sure. That artificially boosted the entry list, making it false. That led to panic and it got worse.

Don't register if your not coming...that adds to the problem If your not sure, wait it out awhile. If it fills, and then you decide you want to go, post a note. Someone will either sell you their spot because they just found out they can't go, we'll do a waiting thing, or we'll just figure out a way to get you in. I think you will see that everyone will get in, we all did last year. I plan on showing up myself and registering on site at least a couple of times because I don't know when I'll be able to go for sure.

[MNbiker]

But the way registration works, if you want any chance of getting into an event you'll have to register a month in advance.
This is simply not true. For the past 3 years, the first event of the year has been the most popular. Plus, as Pat stated, the full events last year seem to have resulted in a mad rush to register early for the first two events. After all that, here's reality: we are 24 days from MOWOG 1, and there are still approximately 40 open spaces for the event.


What I think would be a better policy is to have a 1-week cancellation deadline. That way we could safely register a month in advance and still allow time before the event for people to re-fill any cancelled spots. Would that be too difficult?You're totally missing the point - we don't want people registering, unless they plan to attend an event. People who are having serious angst about this issue need to chill out, and give the process a chance. As of 04/11/06, no 2006 events have filled to capacity. As of 04/11/06, no one has been denied a refund. If events start filling early, or other problems crop up, we'll deal with the issues at that time.

-Steve

[MNbiker]

I registerd for both MOWOG 1 and 2 and I'm not even sure I can go.
And you did this, why? At the rate registrations have been coming in the past couple days, the events may not even be completely full, day of event.

[spboarder17]

:evil: Why not just wait until 7 days before the event to open registration ? :evil:

I agree. This would still allow MAC to run online preregistration and registrants will know their schedule before being faced with the decision to register or not. Members of this club are well dispersed thoughout the income bracket - members with money to blow will register for every event NOW regardless of whether they plan on attending or not. Other members without any room in their budget will not want to risk losing the entry fee, regardless of how insignificant the sum appears to be. Opening up registration one week before the event will eliminate some of this discrepancy and I think it would run smoother all-around. Events always fill up so event managers don't really need to worry about how many entrants to plan for. The disadvantage is that this could create a mad rush at midnight when registration opens, but there is going to be a rush whenever you open registration.

I realize you do not want people registering unless they know they will be attending the event, but this is not a realistic expectation.

It's obviously too late for this season, but maybe something to consider for next year. I personally will not know my schedule until several weeks before events so I am most likely SOL this year.

[Strider]

It's too late to put something like that in place for this year. However, we should discuss the option for some type of season pass for next year. There are some logistical issues, but we may be able to work through them.


Amen to that, I was hoping for it this year as I have a sponser picking up my whole season....

[MNbiker]

Guys,

I'm trying to be sympathetic to people's concerns, but throwing unfounded assumptions & "sky is falling" predictions out there won't help your cause.

If someone can provide a strong case for why registration should open later, we could still change the policy for future 2006 events. However, I'm currently unconvinced it will make much difference. Here are the ACTUAL per-day registration numbers for MOWOG 1:

April 6, 2006...........74
April 7, 2006...........18
April 8, 2006.............7
April 9, 2006.............2
April 10, 2006..........11
April 11, 2006...........3
April 12, 2006...........2
------------------------------------
Total:....................117

Openings:..........43

Once the initial mad rush was over, registrations fell off rather dramatically. There was a bump on Monday, but then registrations dropped off again. At the current rate, there will likely still be spots open on May 6th. Tell me how this isn't SIGNIFICANTLY better than the situation last year?


I'm also having a tough time with the argument that people can't plan 30 days in advance. (I understand there may be exceptions, and we've left room in the policy to deal with those.) Does anyone participate in marathons or softball tournaments? How about attending a Vikings game or concert? There are plenty of events that require substantial advance planning - why do some people feel MAC events should be exempt from such requirements? :? We are required to commit to sites 6+ months in advance, and have to pay thousands of dollars in rental fees - also in advance.



And one final thought to keep in mind - no matter what registration policies we have in place, they won't please everyone. You should have heard some of the harsh policies proposed by members, when we were in the midst of all the no-show issues last year.:bigeyes: All we can do is try to implement financially responsible and even-handed policies that allow MAC provide inexpensive and high quality autocross events. Nothing more, nothing less.

-Steve

[porkbone]

This isn't rocket science. If you have the ability to write a date on your calendar and stick to it, then register now. If you don't, well then unfortunately there is a remote chance that come the day of the event it will be full. It's like making dinner reservations. If you want to eat at the nicest restaurants, you need to make reservations a month or more in advance. If you can't plan a month ahead, you simply cannot go to the nicest restaurants, period. There are no walk-ins. That is just the way it goes.

So if you have a job like mine, and you know you will definitely have May 6th and 7th off, register now. If you won't know until a couple weeks from now, that's fine because it looks like you will probably get in anyway. But what is the alternative? 200 people registering just in case they might be able to go? That's just bad policy.

[jdlhonda]

This isn't rocket science. If you have the ability to write a date on your calendar and stick to it, then register now. If you don't, well then unfortunately there is a remote chance that come the day of the event it will be full. It's like making dinner reservations. If you want to eat at the nicest restaurants, you need to make reservations a month or more in advance. If you can't plan a month ahead, you simply cannot go to the nicest restaurants, period. There are no walk-ins. That is just the way it goes.

So if you have a job like mine, and you know you will definitely have May 6th and 7th off, register now. If you won't know until a couple weeks from now, that's fine because it looks like you will probably get in anyway. But what is the alternative? 200 people registering just in case they might be able to go? That's just bad policy.

I gotta agree with you even though I'm in the boat that's job says you'll know the wednesday before Sat/Sun wether you work or play that weekend, unless you use up a Vacation day either before or after the weekend but, don't have many of those either.

"Let just try this system out we can always change it later"

Jason

[stoooo]

Just out of curiosity, how many of the people who are complaining are fully paid up members who regularly attend the meetings ? From what I see, meetings are where proposals are voted on and approved/declined.

Since this will be my first year, I have no basis for comparison. To me, the current system is the way it is, and I will either love it or hate it by the end of the year.

I was kidding about waiting until 7 days before an event to open registration, by the way. That would just be silly. This year's system seems to be in place to try and solve a problem from last year. Let's at least give it a chance and see how it pans out.

Stuart.

[stoooo]

Here are the ACTUAL per-day registration numbers for MOWOG 1:

April 6, 2006...........74
April 7, 2006...........18
April 8, 2006.............7
April 9, 2006.............2
April 10, 2006..........11
April 11, 2006...........3
April 12, 2006...........2
------------------------------------
Total:....................117

Openings:..........43


What strikes me as odd is that there are two novice schools being offered, with 87 participants between them (yeah, I didn't bother to check for duplicate entries), and yet there are only 117 people signed up for MOWOG1. At that rate, the experienced drivers are going to be well outnumbered.

Stuart.

[AQuimby]

Just out of curiosity, how many of the people who are complaining are fully paid up members who regularly attend the meetings ? From what I see, meetings are where proposals are voted on and approved/declined.

Since this will be my first year, I have no basis for comparison. To me, the current system is the way it is, and I will either love it or hate it by the end of the year.

I was kidding about waiting until 7 days before an event to open registration, by the way. That would just be silly. This year's system seems to be in place to try and solve a problem from last year. Let's at least give it a chance and see how it pans out.

Stuart.
This will be my third year with MAC and dispite my complaint I am a proud member. I live a distance away, that is the only thing that prevents me from attending the meetings. The old system worked better for me but I am not the majority, and for how popular this club has gotten the old system probably would not work any more anyway. I do not like the new system even if it did work well I would not like it. But I'm sure I will be able to deal with it because I can't live without Autox, and MAC is A+ Autox.

[porkbone]

The old system worked better for me but I am not the majority, and for how popular this club has gotten the old system probably would not work any more anyway. I do not like the new system even if it did work well I would not like it. But I'm sure I will be able to deal with it because I can't live without Autox, and MAC is A+ Autox.

In the grand scheme of things, I believe this system is very good. Here is an alternative:

In Denver, you are required to pre-register and pay in advance for every event. There are no walk-in registrations at all, no matter how many people register and pay online. That having been said, they also do NOT have a cap on the number of entrants allowed at an event... so there is no such thing as an event "filling up." Sound good?

The problem is that they have events with 250 drivers and everyone only gets 3 runs each, maybe 4 if you are extremely lucky. So there is a trade-off.

[pinhead]

You should have heard some of the harsh policies proposed by members, when we were in the midst of all the no-show issues last year.


I'm still in favor of the "if you no-show without canceling, you lose all of your future preregistrations" policy :P THAT directly addressed the problem that we were having. The current policy is may end up curtailing the no-show-without-cancelling problem, but in a round-about way that imposes other inconveniences.

But Steve, as you say, not everyone is going to be happy. I'm personally not happy with the new system, but I will go along with it. I do think it will be better than having 35 uncancelled no-shows to a full event ;)

[MNbiker]

The problem is that they have events with 250 drivers and everyone only gets 3 runs each, maybe 4 if you are extremely lucky. So there is a trade-off.

Thanks for bringing up this point, because it has a very direct impact on MAC's registration policies. The club's current goal is to provide 6 runs per MOWOG event, and at least double that for Test 'n Tune events. We have parking/grid space limitations that require smaller entry caps at Midway & Central Parking. However, events at Valleyfair could easily support 200 drivers, and Dakota County could probably support 175. At these higher limits, we would need to reduce the run count to 4. Thus far, the club hasn't been in favor of going that route. Assuming MAC continues to conduct excellent events that drivers want to attend, this issue isn't going to go away.

[phile]

What strikes me as odd is that there are two novice schools being offered, with 87 participants between them (yeah, I didn't bother to check for duplicate entries), and yet there are only 117 people signed up for MOWOG1. At that rate, the experienced drivers are going to be well outnumbered.
Stuart.
There are not supposed to be any duplicates, and as far as I can see, there are none.

The new students will not all be at all the events this year.

It is difficult for those of us who have been addicted to autocross for decades to believe this, but not everyone who tries autocross becomes hooked for life. I know, I don't understand it either.

Some don't believe us when we tell them that becoming fast will probably take a long time. They drop out instead of developing persistence.

There have been times in the Twin Cities when autocross clubs were working on ways to increase interest and membership. This is going on even today in some parts of the country. It is not a priority here and now. Our current problem is capacity.

For this reason, it is not really to our advantage to devote a lot of energy into retention schemes. We need to keep events as fun and friendly for all entrants as possible. We will continue with SI, with instructors, and with being the generally-welcoming folks we are. But but if people don't have the desire to continue in the sport, we can't force them, and it is not in our best interest to try.

[autobahn]

Guys, I'm not trying to whine and bitch, just stating my opinion. I know members who show up at the meetings make the decisions. I'm just speaking my mind so people know that there are some with my opinion so when they make up their own minds they can keep that opinion in mind.

That said, it seems safe to register a week in advance, which is what I'll be doing. I know personally it's bunk for people to no-show without cancelling so I understand the need to put procedures in place to mitigate this. :)

[Darryl]

There are not supposed to be any duplicates, and as far as I can see, there are none.

The new students will not all be at all the events this year.

It is difficult for those of us who have been addicted to autocross for decades to believe this, but not everyone who tries autocross becomes hooked for life. I know, I don't understand it either.

Some don't believe us when we tell them that becoming fast will probably take a long time. They drop out instead of developing persistence.

There have been times in the Twin Cities when autocross clubs were working on ways to increase interest and membership. This is going on even today in some parts of the country. It is not a priority here and now. Our current problem is capacity.

For this reason, it is not really to our advantage to devote a lot of energy into retention schemes. We need to keep events as fun and friendly for all entrants as possible. We will continue with SI, with instructors, and with being the generally-welcoming folks we are. But but if people don't have the desire to continue in the sport, we can't force them, and it is not in our best interest to try.


This was very well put...

Stooo,

It will fill like every event does...

This is the first shot at this policy, it can and will change like everything else has over the last couple years... The guy's/gal on the board and members that show up for the meetings will make changes as needed... Not set in stone...